pahi 31 catamaran

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1403 Pahi 31 in Med

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Will I become crazy and build a caramaran??? Windsong, Coral Cove 31, Pahi 31

Discussion in ' Multihulls ' started by valery gaulin , Apr 2, 2017 .

valery gaulin Senior Member

Pahi 31, Windsong or Coral Cove 31. Am I Crazy enough to start building a catamaran! Ok, I just bought all the study plans that seams to make sense for my needs. Windsong, Coral Cove 31, Pahi 31. I want to know building time comparison and cost comparison from people that walk that path before. The longuest to built and most expensive would be Coral Cove 31 from what I see on the study plans Between Pahi 31 and Windsong??? Other point of importance: - Possibility to single hand - Using with a family of 5, 3 childrens and my wife for short cruise, 1 -2 weeks max - Possibility to cruise the Great loop, the ICW and sail to Cuba me and my wife only in the futur. - The overall beam for marina fees. 14foot is a single slip, above that I am not sure. This is for sure a pros and cons choice vs sailing capability.  

guzzis3 Senior Member

Good! Now we are getting down to it. I possibly should have included the following in my previous comment. I've said it elsewhere on this forum but here goes again: Sailing is a completely irrational activity. It's slow, expensive, uncomfortable and dangerous. Sensible people would take a plane, or a cruise liner. If you have chosen to go sailing the only valid criteria is that it makes you happy. I have bought and sold many second hand boats over the years. Some have been mistakes, but because I buy carefully they have cost me little or no money. Building a boat is a whole other proposition. Your going to invest about $30k and 1500 hours into building a boat in this size range. Nothing could be worse than spending years building your dream boat only to drop it in the water and find it's not what you want. That's why it's important to pick the right one. As a general guide the time and money are proportional to the weight, not the length, and as I said previously fast/cheap build miracle systems are usually not going to deliver the savings you hope for across the whole build. That's not to say you should choose a bad building system, but any of the common ones will yield good results. The pahi is quoted at 1300 kg, but as I said you could build a 24' boat and get those accomodations and at least as good sailing qualities. The CC31 is a huge boat at 2950 kg. It will take you twice as much time and money to build. Windsong is in the middle. IMO it has adequate accommodations for what you want and will sail ok. If it were me I'd build gypsy but windsong is a good choice. Adressing your criteria: - Possibility to single hand Properly set up all these can be sailed solo. - Using with a family of 5, 3 childrens and my wife for short cruise, 1 -2 weeks max Personally I'd find pahi 31 cramped, windsong adequate and CC31 luxurious, but people have different expectations. All will have enough berths. With windsong and CC31 you have standing headroom underway, so stand up shower, stand up galley, and indoor dining if it's raining or cold outside. - Possibility to cruise the Great loop, the ICW and sail to Cuba me and my wife only in the futur. I'm in Australia so can't comment on those waters. - The overall beam for marina fees. 14foot is a single slip, above that I am not sure. This is for sure a pros and cons choice vs sailing capability. 14' is really hard. Wharrams are narrow boats, as are some of the old British production cats, Prouts, Hirondelle etc. Are you going to keep it in a marina permanently or occasionally visit one ? I'd probably add up the numbers and think hard about that. If it was 16' then the possibilities open up, but 14' beam is hard. You might be able to squeeze Eagle down to 14' beam with Mr Woods permission, and it'd have similar accommodations to a pahi 31. You could add a pod to eagle and get a double bed amidships and sleep the kids in the hulls. Like pahi though no 6' headroom.  

Mr Efficiency Senior Member

Good reading, your last post, guzzi.  

With the Material list that Wharram provided I priced the cost for material 15 000$, Main sail 3500$, Foresail 2000$, basic electronics and electricity set up 4000$, rigging 4000$ and included about 80 hours of CNC cutting labor at around 55$ per hour, 4 400$. The total cost is around 33 000$ - 40 000$ to built myself a Pahi 31. Is this a reasonable cost estimate from your experience? I already have a brand new 2016 Suzuki 9.9hp long shaft power tilt electric start outboard with a warranty for 6 years that I currently used with my Grampian 26. I think that this is a perfect fit for this catamaran.  

The suzuki outboard will do for any of those boats, even the waller I think. Mind I sailed for years with no engine and don't understand why some people want huge motors on sail boats. Each to their own. It sounds like you've done some proper costing which is good. Most people underestimate. I can't comment in detail because prices where you are will be different to here, but it looks realistic. I know you like the looks of the wharram, and if you go that way well and good, but please do consider the woods. It will cost about the same to build, maybe slightly more, but it will be a really nice boat. In fact it might be faster to build....There is a basic materials lsit for windsong free to download off the page. It would be worth costing that out. I built a spreadsheet years ago with one page of materials prices and several separate pages of designs. By referencing the materials page I could get totals on different designs and if prices shifted I just had to update a few cells. It is worth considering because you can compare different boats really efficiently. Personally I'd consider the flat panel glass version of windsong. Ply is virtually the same cost as foam sandwich here, flat panel glass/vinylester is probably cheaper and you get a boat that's much lower maintenance and much higher resale value. I don't like ply because I've owned ply boats, that's my opinion, do what's right for you. Mr Efficiency : Thanks! One more thing. Before you start the main boat consider buying the plans for duo or trist from Mr Woods and build that boat. It would be a useful tender on teh larger boat and give you good practice and experience building a boat in plywood. Also gives you something to play in while you build.  

Thank you for your reply. I will for sure price Windsong from Woods since I am also debatting which one to build and I bought the study plan to compare. When you talk about building material. It mention that it can be built with GRP sheet, were can I buy this so that I can get pricing. It would solve the rot proble of wood but it probably is more prone to condensation inside the boat because of lack of insulation properties. I am wondering why pressure treated plywood covered with epoxy is not more used for building boat. If it is dried enought the bonding seams to be as good and if it is sealed with epoxy there should be no health effect breathing inside the boat. Anybody as an opinion on pressure treated plywood with epoxy construction?  

Richard Woods Woods Designs

It probably isn't a good idea to use pressure treated plywood and epoxy as it is likely that the epoxy will not bond properly. And there seems little point to it as coating with epoxy (2-3 coats) will be more watertight and also stiffen the plywood You would probably have to make your own grp flat panels, although there are companies that do it. My Windsong had solid glass hulls and ply decks. My Gypsy had foam sandwich hulls and ply decks. The foam hull is better and, taking the project as a whole, not much more expensive than solid glass Most people with a Windsong would use a high thrust outboard, 8-9.9hp. I only had a old 2 st 9.9 Evinrude on mine, however it only did 5mpg at 5 knots. A new 9.9 should do twice that. You may be overworrying about the durability of plywood. I think I posted these before, but here are photos I took in November of two plywood Windsongs. Both are over 30 years old. The grey one was built on a real budget, only WBP plywood, not 1088. It has crossed the Atlantic twice. Interesting you have a Grampian 26, one of my Canadian customers has offered to lend us his so we can cruise the Georgian Bay this summer (Thank you guzzis3 for your comments) Richard Woods of Woods Designs www.sailingcatamarans.com  

Attached Files:

Windsong 2.jpg, windsong 3.jpg.

garydierking Senior Member

I have been using epoxy on New Zealand treated ply for the last 25 years without any problem. I called the West people first and they gave me their blessing. They said to give it a light sand first to remove any surface granules.  

Yes it seams after looking around on the net that if the pressure treated plywwod is dried the epoxy will bond no problem. I just red that on Glen-L website https://www.glen-l.com/wood-plywood/boatbuilding-plywood.html Anyway I am looking at using Douglas fir plywood marine grade easily available here in Canada. Seams to be a good choice! I actually was priced at 75$ / 12mm x 4'x8' sheet sanded both side. Does this eams right price?  

cavalier mk2 Senior Member

Epoxy is a mechanical not chemical bond which lets it work. My concern would be if the pressure treated ply loses strength in that process like lumber. Something to look into, if your 3/8" is working as 1/4" it is good to know. Epoxy will also adhere to wood treated with things like cuprinoll. My son got me your book Gary, I'm going to play with some of the rigs on my canoe.  

As I said previously if you choose any of the common building methods the result will be good. Which one you choose is up to you. As long as you don't get into anything mad like hot moulding it'll be fine. I was expressing my personal bias against timber. I've owned old ply boats. They had problems. Here is australia ply boats have almost no resale. If they are perfect they are fine. Anything goes wrong they can become a problem. Mr Woods offers solid glass for that boat. He may offer a foam option if you ask. Gypsy has several options you can build, different materials, a demountable version. You have options. Mr Woods has some really great articles on his site explaining the strengths and weaknesses or various materials and build approaches. I strongly recommend you read some of them. It won't take long and they are the best I have found on the internet explaining your options. As I said before everyone has their own preferences, everyone wants something different from the boat. Mr Woods boats offer practical usable accommodation and good sailing characteristics. They are designed to be quick and rational to build. You may not like the style, you may want some specific feature he does not offer. You might decide to build a trimaran or a proa. The woods website is a very good starting point to consider your options, and most of what you'll need is there for free. In the mean time buy some duo or tryst plans and build that boat. It'll give you a really cheap taste of boatbuilding in ply and you'll get a handy little sailing rowing and small outboard dinghy. I am sure once you've done that you will be clearer on what you want to do.  

david@boatsmith Senior Member

The first cat we built was a plywood Tiki 30. We did an outstanding job on the boat and she looked awesome and was well equipped. We barely got materials out of her when sold. For us building a plywood boat is a non-starter. Resale is very important at some point for most people.  

brian eiland Senior Member

david@boatsmith said: ↑ The first cat we built was a plywood Tiki 30. We did an outstanding job on the boat and she looked awesome and was well equipped. We barely got materials out of her when sold. For us building a plywood boat is a non-starter. Resale is very important at some point for most people. Click to expand...

Valery,...how about this already built boat, ready to go? a Woods design 40 http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/64698  

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I already have a sailboat a 1973 Grampian 26 that i just renovated. My catamaran project is my next project so i am not in a hurry. I can enjoy sailing right now while I dream of my catamaran. The Catamaran you are showing look nice but is a little big for me trying to stay between 30-33 foot lenght with 16-17 foot beam. Talking at resale value, the one you are showing me is 107 000$, it seams that it barely pay for the material of the buitl!!! I am sure to build a catamran like this it is prbably around 200 000$ just in material!!! I still did not get a chance to finish pricing Windsong but a short answer is that it look very similar in pricing to Pahi 31 maybe just a little bit more but not much. Probably % difference in displacement is the % difference in cost!!! I  

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WHARRAM PAHI 42: A Polynesian Catamaran

The catamaran designs that British multihull pioneer James Wharram first created for amateur boatbuilders in the mid-1960s were influenced by the boats he built and voyaged upon during the 1950s. These “Classic” designs, as Wharram termed them, feature slab-sided, double-ended, V-bottomed plywood hulls with very flat sheerlines and simple triangular sections. The hulls are joined together by solid wood beams and crude slat-planked open bridgedecks.

Wharram’s second-generation “Pahi” designs, which he started developing in the mid-1970s, still feature double-ended V-bottomed hulls, but the sections are slightly rounder and the sheerlines rise at either end in dramatically up-swept prows and sterns. The most successful of these in terms of number of boats built–and also probably the most successful of any of Wharram’s larger designs–is the Pahi 42. It is an excellent example of a no-frills do-it-yourself cruising catamaran with enough space for a family to live aboard long term.

First introduced in 1980, the Pahi 42, a.k.a. the “Captain Cook,” was the first Wharram design to include accommodations space on the bridgedeck in the form of a small low-profile pod containing a berth and/or (in some variations) a nav station. Unlike the Classic designs, which have no underwater foils other than rudders, the Pahis also have daggerboards, though these are quite shallow and are set far forward in each hull. The rudders are inboard, rather than transom-hung, set in V-shaped wells behind the aft cross-beam.

As on the Classic designs, the cross-beams are flexibly mounted to the hulls, but are lashed with rope rather than bolted on with large rubber bushings. Hull construction likewise is very simple, all in plywood, and explicitly conceived to facilitate home-building by amateurs. The frames consist of a series of flat bulkhead panels fastened to a long centerline backbone with longitudinal stringers running down either side to support the plywood skin panels. Through the main central area of each hull the bulkheads all have large cutouts in their midsections to allow room for interior accommodations space. To increase moisture and abrasion resistance the hull exteriors are sheathed in fiberglass cloth and epoxy.

As designed the Pahi 42 has a single mast and flies a loose-footed mainsail with a wishbone boom. There is also a staysail on a wishbone boom and a conventional genoa flying on a bridle over the forward beam. Many owner-builders have substituted other rigs, including Wharram’s unique gaff “wingsail” rig, where the main has a luff sleeve enveloping the mast, but conventional Marconi rigs are probably the most common. The original design also calls for a single outboard engine mounted on the stern deck to serve as auxiliary power, but many owners have engineered other arrangements, including inboard diesel engines and even electric drives.

As its light-ship D/L and SA/D ratios attest, the Pahi 42 has the potential to be a very fast performance cruiser. Wharram claims top speeds in the neighborhood of 18 knots with average cruising speeds of 9 to 12 knots. In reality, however, it probably takes an unusually attentive, disciplined sailor to achieve anything like this. The Pahi seems to be more weight sensitive than most cats and typical owners, who carry lots of stuff on their boats, report average speeds more on the order of 5 to 8 knots.

The boat also does not sail well to windward, as its daggerboards are not large enough and are not positioned properly to generate much lift. Instead they act more like trim boards and help balance the helm while sailing. They also make it difficult to tack. Most owner-builders therefore consider the boards more trouble than they’re worth and don’t install them, preferring instead to retain the extra space below for storage and accommodations. With only its V-shaped hulls to resist leeway the Pahi reportedly sails closehauled at a 60 degree angle to the wind, though performance-oriented owners who keep their boats light claim they can make progress upwind faster than other boats sailing tighter angles. A few builders have also put long fin keels on their boats and these reportedly improve windward performance to some extent.

As for its accommodations plan, the Pahi 42 has much in common with other open-bridgedeck catamarans. Except for the small pod on deck all sheltered living space is contained within the narrow hulls, which have a maximum beam of just 6 feet. The standard layout puts double berths at both ends of each hull, though many may regard the aft “doubles” as wide singles. The central part of the port hull contains a small dinette table and a large galley; the center of the starboard hull is given over to a long chart table or work bench, plus a head.

Naturally, many owner-builders have fiddled the design a bit to suit their own tastes. The most significant changes involve the deck pod. Those who crave more living space tend to enlarge it; in at least one case it has blossomed into something approaching a full-on bridgedeck saloon, which must hurt sailing performance. In other instances, in an effort to save weight and improve performance, builders have omitted the pod entirely.

The great advantage of a Pahi 42, or any Wharram cat for that matter, is its relatively low cost compared to other cats in the same size range. To obtain one new, however, you normally must build it yourself. Wharram estimates this takes between 2,500 to 3,000 hours of effort. The alternative is to buy one used, which now normally costs less than building one.

There is an active brokerage market with boats listed for sale all over the world. The best sources for listings are Wharram himself and another Brit, Scott Brown , who operates mostly online. Because Wharrams are built of plywood, even if sheathed with epoxy and glass, the most important defect to look for is simple rot. This, however, is not hard to detect and, because the boats are structurally so simple, is also not hard to repair.

Specifications

Beam: 22’0”

–Boards up: 2’1”

–Boards down: 3’6”

Displacement

–Light ship: 7,840 lbs.

–Maximum load: 14,560 lbs.

–Working sail: 640 sq.ft.

–Maximum sail: 1,000 sq.ft.

Fuel: Variable

Water: Variable

–Light ship: 89

–Maximum load: 165

–Working sail: 25.91 (light ship); 17.14 (max. load)

–Maximum sail: 40.48 (light ship); 26.78 (max. load)

Nominal hull speed

–Light ship: 11.9 knots

–Maximum load: 9.8 knots

Build cost: $70K – $120K

Typical asking prices: $40K – 100K

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please more info and prices for this model!

Response to Goran below: I recommend you follow the link above to Scott Brown’s website. Lots of boats and prices there!

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Halloween in Moscow

History of Halloween dates back to the ancient traditions of the Celts. For the first time the name of the holyday is mentioned in the 16th century as a Scottish shortening of the English «All-Hallows-Even», which translates as «The evening of All Saints».

Halloween has gained a lot of popularity in Russia for the past years. This year the celebration takes place on holidays, therefore, you have 3 days to party – from October 31 to November 2! We Heart Moscow has chosen the brightest and crowded with ghosts Halloween parties in Moscow.

FUNNY HALLOWEEN PARTY AT THE «16 TONS»

While different places compete with each other to do the holiday as scary as possible, «16 tons» Club will make the audience feel scary funny.

This celebration is for those who are tired of the ubiquitous zombies and witches that fill all the clubs in the night of October 31. This is not necessarily come in scary costumes – just dress up to have as much fun as possible!

A team of DJs: Miloslav Chemodanov, duo Hollo and Vastashin, DJ Emtsev, Sophie Tronza and their friends will spin your favorite hits and create exceptionally friendly atmosphere until the dawn. Those who cannot prepare to a masquerade at home, can to use the services of two make-up artists directly in the club absolutely free.

The party will start at 23.59 on October 31. Entrance will cost from 500 rubles (€10).

Club “16 Tons” – Presnensky Val St., 6, build. 1.

HALLOWEEN PARTY FROM «ARMA 17S»

The founders of the legendary club «Arma 17» have announced first of five global parties, to be held this year. Halloween Party will last 24 hours and will take place at the territory Trekhgornaya manufactory.

The creative team of «Arma» keep their visitors in total ignorance about the new site for the club. However, the first party will take place on November 1 in the space on the fourth floor of the building on the Rochdelskaya street, and apparently, Halloween from «Arma 17» promises to be quite impressive.

Lineup of «Manufacture» is going to very worthy – Rhadoo and Petre Inspirescu, Resident Club der Visionaere Vera, which is known to work with Ricardo Villalobos, DJ Sleeparchive, Tin Man and the Dutchman Orgue Electronique. Three dance floors are promised – two main and one secret.

Celebrate Haloween with «Arma 17» on November 1, at 23:00 Entrance costs from 1000 rub.

Trekhgorny manufactory – Rochdelskaya St., 15.

HALLOWEEN MASQUERADE RAVE

There will perform outstanding legends of the world electronic scene. The event will be held at one of the largest and comfortable event-site of capital «RAY JUST ARENA».

For total immersion in the atmosphere of the sacraments and illusions, organizers have prepared for you 100 kW of clear powerful sound, laser and light show, psychedelic performance to world stars music.

Headliners of the performance are: The long-awaited, retro LIVE set, Skazi, Avalon Live, Sesto Sento Live, Laughing Buddha Live, Gataka Live], TLN DJ’s team.

Visitors are invited to come in mascaraed costumes. The party starts at 23.55 on October 31. Entrance costs from 750 rubles.

Club Ray Just Arena – Leningradsky Prospect 31, build. 4.

TIM BURTON STYLE HALLOWEEN

Edward Scissorhands or dead bride – only you can decide how to look this night! Frightening makeup, lurid stories and best pictures from the most mysterious director of our time await you in art cafe «The Sea Inside» (More Vnutry). The party will be held in an atmosphere of fear, horror and hell fun. It offers a rich program with watching the best films by Tim Burton, a variety of mystical competitions and tricks.

Professional make-up artists will cast over your unique horror make-ap. After the transformation, you can make a photo of yourself in the real coffin.

Participants of the holiday will remember all the horror stories that scared them in childhood, and Playback Theatre «Paraphrase» will turn these stories into the most sinister tale performed on stage! Playback is a custom theater; its foundation is improvisation and diving into the psychology of the narrator. Actors of «Paraphrase» do not show rehearsed performance, but seek to convey the feelings and emotions of the audience – here and now.

The party will be held on October 31, at 19.00. Entrance costs from 3000 RUB.

Cafe «The Sea Inside» – Peschannaya Alley, 7 (Sokolniki park)

BLACK & BLOODY FRIDAY

Lawson’s Bar decided to combine two holidays – Halloween and Night of sales – Black Friday. The original costume party offers not only monsters, but also the crazy prices for the bar menu!

The Scottish Lawson’s Bar is simply obliged to arrange a truly terrible holiday. the most unusual party Black & Bloody Friday in Lawson’s Bar offers guests unprecedented sale on the bar menu – all the drinks (except single malt whiskey) can be purchased at 199 rubles!

In addition, from October 31 to November 1, staff will turn into horrible monsters, charming Go-go girls will show their performance, the best DJs will play music and professional photographers will shoot the Sabbath. All guests are strongly encouraged to come in costumes to remember this night for a long time.

The party starts on October 31, at 22.00. The entrance is free.

Black & Bloody Friday, Lawson’s Bar – Blagoveshchensky lane, 1A.

ROCK OF AGES. HALLOWEEN PARTY

The most rock ‘n’ roll party in Moscow in honor of All Saints’ Day will be held in «China town cafe» club. Each year the place offers a special theme for Halloween. This year’s party is called the «Rock of Ages», as the famous Broadway musical, and later the famous movie with Tom Cruise in the lead role. The festive atmosphere and the sounds of rock will shake you like a hurricane.

The party will be held on October 31, at 23.00.

Club «China Town Cafe» – Lubyanka driveway, 25/12

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Columbia University in the City of New York

Miriam and ira d. wallach art gallery.

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Moscow: City, Spectacle, Capital of Photography

April 30–june 21, 2003.

Moscow: City, Spectacle, Capital of Photography , an exhibition of 20th-century photographs of Moscow, opens at Columbia University's Miriam and Ira D. Wallach Art Gallery on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 and remains on display through Saturday, June 21, 2003.

Moscow has been a powerful magnet for many Russian photographers of the 20th century. Moscow: City, Spectacle, Capital of Photography presents the work of 31 photographers, whose images have defined the visual experience of Moscow from the 1920s to the present. Diverse in form and strategy, the 90 photographs chosen for the exhibition trace the history of Russian documentary photography and offer insight into individual practices. From Aleksandr Rodchenko's constructivist visions and Evgenii Khaldei's humanist landscapes to Igor Moukhin's scenes of urban spectacle and alienation in the works of Russia's key 20th-century photographers, Moscow ventures beyond the expected image as a site of famous landmarks, architectural treasures and dramatic lifestyles.

Early 20th-century photographers Boris Ignatovich and Arkadii Shaikhet saw themselves in the vanguard of an emerging mass-media culture, defining with their cameras the visual experience of Soviet modernity. For nearly 70 years, Soviet photography was assigned the duty of maintaining the ideological rigidity of the Soviet State. Yet, as examples of the work of Iakov Khalip, Anatolii Egorov, Mikhail Savin, and Mark Markov-Grinberg show, Soviet photographic practices were much more complex than has been previously acknowledged. The works of these photographers remain intensely compelling to a modernist eye.

Contemporary Russian photographers, such as Lev Melikhov, Valerii Stigneev and Sergei Leontiev, engage with the legacy of the Soviet documentary photography. But for them the documentary is a complex and multivalent genre, which incorporates subjectivity, ambiguity and reflexivity and comments on social and cultural issues without losing sight of the position from which that commentary is made. In the recent photographs by Vladimir Kupriyanov, Igor Moukhin, Anna Gorunova and Pakito Infante, the "real" space of Moscow is replaced by an imaginary and optical spaces of virtuality.

The works in the exhibition are on loan from Moscow's Cultural Center Dom, and many are being shown outside Russia for the first time. In conjunction with the exhibition, the Wallach Art Gallery is publishing an illustrated catalogue with a scholarly essay by the exhibition curator, Nadia Michoustina, a Ph.D. candidate in Columbia University's Department of Slavic Languages. The essay presents a nuanced history of Russian photography of the 20th century, and contributes to an interpretation of extraordinary images.